Can Abusers Truly "Get Better"?

From the article:

While the proportion of women who were reassaulted was relatively low, 70% of the women were subjected to verbal abuse, 45% were subjected to controlling behaviors, and 43% experienced threats. Nonetheless, 66% of the women said their "quality of life" had improved, and 73% reported feeling "very safe" during the follow-up periods.

Read more: Treatment for Male Batterers - Recidivism Rates - Violence, Domestic, Participants, Months, Reassault, and Program http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/2066/Treatment-Male-Batterers-RECIDIVISM-RATES.html#ixzz0wzo6tj00

Justme:

Not to mention a tad hard-headed

Yep.

I'm Mr. Doormat to my ex, daughter (yet, I care deeply for her and know it's just a phase), my two sister and my mom, ex-mom-in-law and my ex's sisters.

I respect women... I just haven't seen it returned (in person). I categorize people online differently cuz I don't *personally* know them and their views of me vary.

convince you that you rock!

After so many decades of being told negative, it's hard to understand postive *IN* me, but that doesn't mean that I have to be mean to others... and try not to be. Yet, if I was *AS* mean to others as they were to me, their dust bunnies would run away. Yet, that just isn't me.

Thanks.. it was difficult to realize at first, as it was emotional not physical. I think the physical abusers can learn to supress their urges and take anger management etc ... not so sure about emotional. That would be tougher I think. I may be wrong....

I think youre right. THEY have to want to, and even then it's iffy that they will ever be able to comprehend enough to try. But most blame others, so it rarely happens.

Another thing is, I have seen men who were abusive with one woman who weren't abusive to another - because they have different personalities maybe or something in the way they react?

So does that mean they are "better"? Or does it just mean they found someone they are more compatible with? Or both?

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it's the woman that makes the difference but more the combination of the two together. My husband has a record with one of his exes that would make him appear to be very abusive, but I have never found him threatening at all. My ex however was so abusive I had to leave to save my life (and has been that way with everybody). So I think there are many times that it's more a matter of individuals and how they interact, other times you have a true misogynistic sociopath.Either way, if you are in the situation - leaving is a good idea.

Ateur - "People who abuse people and animals, sexually or not, can't get better."

I'd have to disagree with that. People that have abused can get better. I don't have a big long argument. I just know better.

yes that is a very common response.

Months aren't long enough to determine whether he will eventually be able to get better. It took me about five years after being locked up to decide I needed to pull my head out of my a$$. It then took me another 20 years to get a firm hold on it.

The good new for you is that you now have an abuser detector. If you meet a guy and immediately start having angry or fearful thoughts, that's a guy you want to keep well away from. As a silver lining goes though it kinda sucks.

Hehehe I think it only appears that way when a guy looks at it! ;)

Actually, when I looked at it, the "No" was the highes... then someone clicked on more maybe's... I knew u weren't man-bashin'... just jokin' around.

FW:

Interesting view point. Acknowledgment is a first step. Yet, if they can not or will not change a behavior, then they will be stuck. Some people can acknowledge they need help, yet, the realization of change is needed gets them entrenched... out of fear.

Then also, if a person truly changes, that may also implode. They changed, yet the people around them haven't changed and that is where a lot of divorces happen. Been thru that. Not fun.

April----I know many people who have gotten better, as your friends have. But then, I didn't meet them until they were looking to change and how to make that happen. I always figure 10% make it, and I was exposed to the 10%. So I can say yes, with willingness and honesty, change is quite possible. Operative word being -- possible.

justme----It's 20yrs since I immersed myself in this subject, and much has changed in society since then. One book that comes to mind is Violent Voices by Kay Porterfield, if it's still in print or at the library. Two VERY important points I want to make.

1) Learn about alcoholic family systems. Whether or not alcohol is a factor, it probably influenced the family somewhere down the line, and more is studied and written for *lay* people to easily grasp. Basically all of this reduces to different angles on the cycle of violence and how it escalates. It will teach you to see how you are 50% of the problem. You can't change him, but you can change YOU, and you can teach your daughter how to love him, warts and all, without developing an unhealthy bond that will carry over into her own relationships with men, if you learn how to apply this to yourself.

2) So much is in the language, the dialogue. Here is where books written to family of alcoholics or domestic violence are helpful. I used a small workbook called Life Skills for Adult Children by Janet Woititz and Alan Garner. I just looked on the internet and both of these books are around still. Everything was centered on changing the language and my response. Group therapy works with this (things like family sculpting helped), but I needed much more help. And it paid off big time for me. When we change the script -- you know -- you say this, then I say that, and we always end up the same place, impasse. When the words change, the rug pulls out. The feelings change. The payoffs change. It takes a LOT of work, skinned knees, crying your eyes out, but SO worth it. So if I can offer you hope, it's there if you seek it and are willing to do it for yourself. You WERE a part of that system.

(ps--I love your avatar! I have that from yrs ago on an old file named "Bad Hair Day" in my "Fun" folder!)

Accepted gladly. When you "get better", you role-model to your daughter how to internalize those things herself. It's not about teaching critical thinking to children in these matters, or about protecting them from situations or emotions they have about them -- it's about role-modeling how to handle situations and emotions. Then your daughter learns to "get better."

With your own new pair of glasses, and better language to communicate with that doesn't leave you stripped of your power, your definition of "get better" will adjust. Good luck and remember your own courage to face this.

That too would depend on the stubborn-nessof the individual. You can't force someone to want something by artificial means such as you mentioned and have it actually work (not with humans.)

I beg to differ with you sunny. When that 500,000 volt-zap knocks you unconscious to the ground, you will be forced to want to change, eventually. It works with animals, and we are animals, supposedly smarter too, but that varies from one to another.

That's not my point. If behaviour changes because of a stimulus such as a shock collar or other threat, the more intelligent animal that is determined to have a behaviour (or feels it is a right) will either seek to remove the shock collar or other threat, or wait until the shock collar is removed to again engage in that behaviour. It has to actually be something that individual wants to change for behaviour modification to actually work. Conformity to avoid punishment isn't a change of attitude. Conformity to avoid punishment is just a different party in control.

You're going all theory on me here and that's where it gets confusing. It's simple, we are all creatures of habit. Abusers are sociopaths that have found perverse pleasure in controlling and abusing others all programmed in for any number of personal antisocial reasons.

They weren't born that way, they developed that way in incremental perverse, thrill-seeking-steps of narcissistic self-pleasures. First, as a spoiled brat bullying others on the playground, then on to more sociopathic pleasures of manipulation and control right on up to abuse and rape and if unchecked it frequently goes to the ultimate sadistic high of killing. They feed this kind of perverse pleasure with continued increase in difficulty, risk and damage.

They will never want to change anything about this behavior without a damn good reason that will benefit them. Hence the collar. It stays on forever and they can not escape it, they can only modify their behavior to avoid the punishment, for such time that they develop new habits and values, morals and ethics etc.

"(Conformity to avoid punishment isn't a change of attitude.")

WOW!!! Think rules, regulations, laws, and boundaries here. Ever hear of an attitude adjustment, I've had a few and they point blank effectively changed my attitudes.

So your suggestion is to punish a person who is abusive to their significant other by making them wear a shock collar for the rest of their life and someone who controls said collar shocking them when they act up? Sadistic much?

I agree with both of you. The changing of the heart to feel love and compassion and empathy towards others is, by far the best solution.

So how's that concept going for ya, so far?

I was only responding to the question in the title, Can Abusers Truly "Get Better?" Yes, is my answer but it will take a lot more than just talk and drugs. I only know what i have seen with behavioral modification in animals and it works, it takes time and effort, but it does work.

Dale----You should watch the cult movie A Clockwork Orange from 1972. The premise was they strapped a violent criminal into a chair with eyelids taped open, he watched films with increasing levels of violence, and was given drugs that made him grossly ill at the same time the violence was increasing. He learned to associate his urges with the pain. He was rehab poster boy for the politicians,and released. Then he went on a binge of violence with the old gang.

Group therapy along with individual counseling are much better at purging and reconditioning.

story artist- Good points but it is all about breaking habits. It doesn't matter what kind of therapy or training or punishment takes place, as soon as they are back in the same old situation that started the bad behavior they will resume the same old bad habits. They have to break the habit and change the situation and their thinking, for the rest of their life. It's like with drinking, "Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic."

see comment #9.1

storyartist- Re #9.1- Good comment and it really points out to me that our problem is with society, and all its many temptations. This is going to be misunderstood but, IMHO, our priorities about life have shifted from 'our struggle to survive' in this world, to 'our need to enjoy' all of life's pleasures with all its many interpretations and choices. I'm not saying this is wrong, but it is a very self-serving and tempting environmental Petri dish, for every culture of narcissistic symptom known to man to incubate in.

I am working on this very concept right now in my book, which has to do with a complete life style change of going back to the old ways of 'working' with Mother Nature. It centers in a modern commune type of group living, with a military-base structure, which includes university research goals in psychology and biology. All priorities have the soul-purpose and intent of helping our troubled-kids to learn how to live right, by training and helping our troubled-dogs, all with the guidance and diverse mentoring skills of our many discarded-elders. In this positive work-style of living (24 / 7 / 52), the habits of good living become a way of life, and there are no temptations. It's almost like heaven on Earth with a lot of sweat, but no tears.

The neighboring town-folks enjoy and participate in many of the community projects with the kids and the concept grows and spreads like a grassroots wildfire form one town to the next.

US Citzen - "If the abuser emotionally abuses their victim(s), leaving no physical scars but many psychological ones, and the victim has "nothing to show" to "prove" or "point to" the abuse, and the abuser appears to "the world" be a decent individual, other people can actually help the abuser abuse the victim even more, by refusing to believe that the victim is really abused at all!"

You just described my relationship with my mother.

US Citizen - "Abusers who don't think they have/are really doing anything wrong, and probably see therapy as some kind of personal affront or insult...and generally will avoid it"

This is the only false note you struck in my opinion. My knowledge of abusers leads me to believe that they are very aware that they are in the wrong. The are just often completely unwilling to admit it. In fact, the shame abusers feel leads them ever deeper into violence.

This is why treatment tends to focus on accepting responsibility for their abusive behaviors.

flameaway: Thank you for your responses!

I think that abuse is so complex and convoluted that no mere short few paragraphs could even begin to describe it.

Your comments are "on the mark" too as far as I'm concerned.

And the more shared about abuse and the abusers..the better...so the abused can escape and recover and the abusers can be helped - in the cases where that is possible.

justme - the only thing, IMO only that I believe will ever help him, if he truly wants to change...and even if not......are consequences. By your taking care of yourself and your daughter, removing yourself from his abuse, and he realizes, if ever, he is losing everything in his life by his own choices....then and only then could he possibly get better, for him. If this is an addiction, and I am going to say it is...he is going to have to hit bottom, some can go down really far, almost death, but first and most importantly, YOU CAN'T FIX or CHANGE him. That is the one thing, you'll never have control over. So do what you have to do for you and your family, and hopefull in time, he will get the help he needs. You may never get back together, but put one foot in front of the other and don't allow him ANY chances to harm you again. Be strong and follow though. It's hard, but easy never gets anyone anywhere. Pain can be a great motivator and should be. That's why we have that sensory...it will initiate change for the better. With love, Hek

justme----You're in a power struggle with him here. Let go.

I do think he thought

I know he's realizing the consequences

Remember about learning a new language. One that focuses on what you think, not what you think in reaction to what he did, said, or might think. It's possible, my dear.

Never be embarrassed, love sometimes blinds us from things we don't want to see....even when right in your face. It will take real love for yourself and daughter, and even him to, as storyartist said" let go! The toughest love you can give is the hardest, but most rewarding. I know. Be kind to yourself....cause if you don't take care, it will get you too and then you will remain a victim. You have a choice, and by choosing to have a healthy life, everyone will be better off. (((((((((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))))

Hi Mighty Mouth - so, do you consider "all" abusers hopeless? And there are plenty of crazy women who abuse just as much and just as bad, we shouldn't leave them out of this, it's not just males here that hurt people. Just thought I'd throw that in. I certainly don't and can't compare a Pedophile to an alcoholic, or a man who him, his self was abused and knows no better way to communicate. The truly incurable, like I said above would be the Pedophile and the likes of them. Just asking as it seemed you group all abusers as the same. However, you are right about one thing....therapy for all. (However, I think therapy on the last one is a waste of time) ya know. For them, they need to be locked up and the key thrown away. Hek:)

What you perceive as cold/hot, compassionate/ruthless -- your view of the situation will change when you look through different lenses. There is no description or answer of what that will be, as we're all different, but what is consistent is that we change our perception when we detach and get out of "their head."

Hi Hekkie, I'm not in the business of giving them any excuses, since the battering of women I find unforgivable. I ought to have added that there are all types of abusers with conflicting motives - but all are ultimately control freaks. The abusers that I have come across tend to be serial batterers, however - I concede to the fact that there are some who only attack within a certain kind of relationship and it can be a two-way street, since there are also violent women. It's a complex subject matter that deserves more consideration than I probably gave it within my short post. I consider their problem as a form of addiction with few offenders able to rehabilitate and in many cases, it is a problem with unfortunately no quick fixes that's the reason why I likened it to pedophilia - an abuse of a person, an addiction, with no quick fixes.

Mighty, I do agree with you....if a man abuses me, or were too.....he'd be done in my book, at that second, that moment and for good. No second chances. I watch people for a long time and don't and won't allow whatever emotions I may have, or feel, to override my false sence of security as to let them in too close or too fast. I learned the hard way, not to trust them till they break it,,,,but to earn it before I can allow them to just have my trust. I do though, still have an idealistic view for some that can be treated. (Thank you by the way for being a great "man", and for advocating strongly for abused women). Hugs, Hekkie

justme - where I'm at in my life now.....I wouldn't let them to continue in my life for any reason, no matter how much they professed their love, devotion or how sorry they are. See when a person say's "I'm sorry" too many times for the same time, well they simple are! All I can say is to trust your instincts......they never lie. Me, I'd be outta there..I have no problem loving from far away. I hope you follow through on what you need to do for you and your daughter, I think you already know. Hek;)

justme - it is hard to hear your child cry....however, it does get better. If you are hurt for her at that moment, comfort her and know, in the long run....you'll really be sparing her more crying and watching her mother continually be abused or allow it, and that is what you would be teaching her. That it's okay. That is why I left my girls father, he was so physically and emotionally and sexually abusive, that it indirectly affected them...I would not allow them to ever believe that was okay. They never lost their relationship with him, we just didn't live together and that part of what they didn't need to live to survive, ended. It took time, as they were young to understand, but I'll tell you what, they don't let any man abuse them, ever. They have made better choices for it, better then I did at their age. So I guess I learned something from what happened to me, I was able to make a difference, my children indirectly saved my life....ya know. I am really proud of both of them, and me. You and your daughter will be fine. Someday, you will find a male role model that she will later seek, as she depends on you to teach her what that is! Hek;)

I'm glad to hear you are sticking to your guns! You are so strong. I'm also glad to hear your daughter is more relaxed now. The tension gets pretty bad between outbursts with violent people. After 14 years, I'm still awkward around people who show signs of anger for any reason so be patient with yourself. Everyone heals differently. Thank you for updating us!

(((((Justme)))))

I didn't realize how stressed out and miserable I really was until I started to recover.

I understand that, to a point. My mother loved to knock me down every chance she had. When she passed away 2 years ago, it was like the world had been lifted from my shoulders. I no longer had to walk away from her in public places, when she was drunk. (We live in a very small community) I am so happy to hear that you & your daughter are enjoying life! Don't let him come back into your life. Once he's been sober for ___— (you can fill in the amount of time) let him back in his daughter's life. But don't let him back in yours!

Too be real honest, Justme, after reading alot of the posts here on your article, I feel like we've all been preaching to the choir! LOL.....

You have a very good head sitting above those wide shoulders. (Wide enough to take on the world, if need be, for your daughter.) You will do fine.

(((((((Justme))))))))

All it takes to "fall for another person's act", is for the other person to first come across as a fun, lovely, nice person (or whatever other adjective you want) when you first meet them. So the man you met turned out to be someone totally different. No one can blame you. You wizened up, real quick like from what I've read, and dumped his sorry behind.

And sorry, but when you became a mommy, you became a caped crusader. You would come between her and anything or anyone who was going to cause pain to her, wouldn't ya? That is a caped crusader! You need to stop being so darned humble!

LOL....you are a beautiful person yourself!

Justme- I'm not a betting man but, I'd bet my, my, ten bucks, that the next time you fall for a guy, he won't be able to pull anything over your eyes. You've set out your own red flags this time, and those are the only ones we really recognize.

Heck, I wouldn't worry about a thing.....this being "normal" ...... from what I've heard, it's not all it's cracked up to be!!!!!!! ;)

Flame- I've got a point I'd like to interject here with this situation. I agree with you totally but, there is another element that is not being discussed here. The enabler allows the manipulation and abuse to occur and continue. It is one of the elements required, the fuel, that allows the fire to grow.

Example; If every single time the abuser attempted to intimidate and control, through the many techniques of manipulation, they were called out on it firmly, and resolutely for what it is, then the abuser would no longer have control. They would either adapt to the new rules, fight the changes, or leave. It only continues when it works. Easier said then done, for sure, but, it's part of the equation.

Conversely: If the abuser truly wanted to change, and made every effort to change, but the spouse continued to pamper and whimper, and not stand their ground as an equal partner, then that void, that vacuum of equality would be filled yet again. It takes two to Tango!!!

Dale95,

You make a very good point. I am more used to seeing things from the abuser side or as completely outside the whole issue. If you see what I mean. I often think of what you are saying in these terms: "Oprah is not rapeable." Her confidence and sense of self simply deflects all of that kind of anger away from her.

JustMe, First let me apologize. I can very easily get interested in the structures that cause abuse. I hope it doesn't seem that I don't care about what you have suffered. Your reaction to your abuser was forthright, sensible and brave. Had you shown the slightest weakness the situation would likely have escalated. I think it likely that your daughter will pick those characteristics up from you. So, while you worry remember that your example is already in place and active.

Can I stick with brave? I was frightened the entire time I was locked up. I still got up everyday and went about my business. That is bravery. So you are brave. Doesnt' really matter why. Just that you are :)

Justme- Sorry if I rustled any feathers out there in cyber space, but, I just made a statement that needs to be seen and understood. It is a hard, cold fact of reality, and although it applies in different degrees to different people and different situations, it is, never the less a fact that can't be overlooked. We are accountable for what we do as well as what we don't do.

You commented that you can't imagine what would have happened if you'd have stayed in that situation; that is exactly my point, a lot of people do stay, and continue to feed that fire of abuse and it almost never ends up good. You stood up for yourself, good, because that is the only key that will unlock this kind of abusive situation. We cannot depend on others to stand up for us!!!

I'm glad you made it out safe with your daughter and again, I sorry for my bluntness. Dale

Justme- You make an excellent point about how we raise our kids. This is about the most important lesson a parent can ever teach their kids. Self-Pride, Self-efficacy, R-E-S-P-E-C-T for ourselves plus a whole boat load of others. These lessons don't come from preaching, or reading a book, or from sitting in a classroom either. They are shown to us by example.

You took a risk and in the process found freedom, and by doing so you also taught your kids how to do it too. Amen to you, sister. We are constantly in the process of either teaching our kids how to become victims or, how to stand up for themselves with strength and conviction.

One more thing, about your compassion. I am having trouble with the same kind of thing, only different. I have tried showing more compassion and it doesn't work. I have been forceful in my expressions and that doesn't work. There are some situations with some people that just refuse to see reality, and there is nothing anybody can do about it. We have the legal right to be ignorant, for what ever reason. But, I choose not to be part of it. SAD!!!

I identify with the point you both have been making. Some of the hardest aspects seemed to always be stereotyped about other people when I was looking or answers, until I heard a speaker named Terry Gorski (specialty was relapse prevention). I knew codependency was a problem for me, but no way was I a doormat, or afraid to speak up. In his talk, he identified the flip player in the scene and called him/her the counterdependent. When I heard the word, I groaned and covered my head -- I knew I'd finally been recognized. From lessons I learned from him, I could apply in the future. It's a Carl Jung thing -- there's always a shadow self. When we hear about the doormat, just because it doesn't apply doesn't mean it's not about us -- it may be the shadow self. I guess the example is your story above, justme, where you're not easily pushed around by him, yet how does it happen that you had an attraction to him, and that you got hurt? Just because we don't doormat doesn't mean we don't engage in the power struggle. The absence of that codependent power struggle is where the healthy stuff happens. I was always grateful to Terry for a way to see my own humanity in the situation even when it seemed to be opposite of what my own image was.

The main deterrent to compassion is fear. Those that need compassion the most are often the most afraid to accept it. I do not believe this is always stubborness. It is often simply deeply rooted mistrust.

On the other, hand it can often be hard to extend compassion to what we fear. It takes looking inside and surrounding the fear, giving it no place to hide. For compassion arises out of our understanding of our own fallibity. When we are blind to that monster within we feel justified in turning to hatred and alienation.

Sadly, offenders are often unable to initiate the search for compassion and the intimacy that follows. Therefore, it behooves us all to begin the process ourselves and carry them with us.

Storyartist,

So the shadow self is all the desires that we are not immediately aware of but nonetheless are powerful and active?

My best example is the relationship of dependence-independence-interdependence. The 1st two are two sides of the same coin (shadow self being the side not showing).

In my own example, I'm high on the independence side, but what I learned is that for good reasons, my hypervigilant independent protects my dependent shadow self and greatly fears exposing any weakness or dependency on any one/thing. But I was unable to see my weak/vulnerable side.

For others, it's the opposite, like the dependent spouses of abusers who fear going into the world alone with no protection, yet their shadow self is actually quite capable, holding a family and frequently the finances together, but they can't see their own strength.

Interdependence is the merging of the self with the shadow self -- with the ability to respond to either as life presents a situation, without reflecting ONLY the dominant side and reacting, to protect the shadow.

Did I explain that in a way that's understandable? I was addressing justme's comment about stereotyping, and how it feels like we're not represented in the self-help books. It took me a couple of years to get to the Gorski "revelation", but after that, I was able to open myself up to the idea that very often it wasn't true of me, but it was true of my shadow side. Or -- maybe I don't do that with heroin -- but do the same with nicotine -- that kind of transference.

I have faith that you'll search and find what applies to you. Since we've already discussed before this article, you already know that I admire your commitment to your own recovery and adjustments to better your own vision and to teach your daughter by your own actions. The fact that you're asking for a reality check, outside opinion, from your friend for what s/he sees in you just proves my faith in your sincerity.

we're trying to attach a whole lot of deeper meaning to my not seeing through his lies

To be clear, who is "we" here? If that originated with my remark:

yet how does it happen that you had an attraction to him, and that you got hurt? Just because we don't doormat doesn't mean we don't engage in the power struggle. The absence of that codependent power struggle is where the healthy stuff happens

then try to reconsider that I wasn't referring to "his lies" at all. Remember, I'm not looking at what "they" do at all -- only at what my own reactions and responses are teaching me, and I trust from there.

storyartist,

I really like your take on this. It avoids all the distractions and focuses on achieving resolution. kudos.

flameaway----Thanks! That's what I strive for. Since I'm so annoyingly wordy, my own thinking gets distracted with side stories. What I learned about my own codependency (and counterdependency!) has given me a framework that now works for everything I do.

In my own story, I entered the adult world with verbal boxing gloves -- I worked in upscale hospitality mostly -- the gloves were very polite -- but they served to distract and maneuver conversation to the direction that avoided any personal growth for me. I'm still defensive, but not nearly so much as I was until age 40. (I'm now 60)

If you get something from what I share, I'm thrilled!

justme----Think of it this way. When you go into a department store to buy a sundress, you'll see whole departments that aren't even your size. When you shop within your own department, some don't fit your body shape, some don't fit your taste, some colors or designs are wrong, some are cheaply sewn -- then you find a small stash to choose from that DO fit. The other clothes are not wrong to be there -- they're just intended for someone else.

Then you return to this department store when you're pregnant, and the old racks don't apply, you have new selections.

Then you get older and no longer find sundresses in Young Miss dept, or Maternity dept, but in a mature woman's dept. The store didn't change -- you did. And those selections are still available for those behind you for whom they are intended.

Take what you need -- leave the rest.

I like that last post, storyartist.....it's a great way to look at what life deals a person!

Yes it is very sad. I am sorry that you are unable to feel safe. We simply must stop creating people like this.

If he changes, you will feel it immediately. It is not susceptable to reason, it is emotional. You will want to smile around him or touch him. Until you feel this way around him maintain your guard.